Psionics discussion

[shalvan]

Since the thread for input on outright banned races and classes has ran its course I decided to create a new one, just as Eldwen proposed.

It appears to me that the only reason the psionic classes are to be banned is the fact that they can manifest their powers without the use of material components for spells - which is the case also for arcane and divine classes by default. Since it could be coded for arcane spells to require material components (and there are far more spells than there are psionic powers) it should also be possible to include material components for psionic powers - for example psionically active crystals used to focus psions own power (in PnP there even are psicrystals which are akin to familiars... since they're not present in NWN, we get a kind of substitute? ). Besides, PRC spellbook spells are coded as feats - same as psionic powers - and I believe they still use material components when cast. Therefore it appears to me that it shouldn't be too hard to code psionics having material components.

Psionics also certainly isn't out of setting. Psionic races are aplenty in Forgotten Realms campaign setting, mainly the famous Illithid and their former slaves - duergar variant favored class is Psychic Warrior and both Githyanki and Githzerai are psionic (by the way, in the character build rules they shouldn't be listed as "monstrous"). Of other races at least the Elan is plausible enough to be playable.

forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Psionics

The wiki might not be very accurate because it has been updated to 4e, but it supports what I said - except the races of Gith and Zerthimon, which are native to astral plane and not prime material. Either way since psionics is very rare I feel the access to it could be restricted. For example there could be a psion NPC willing to take an apprentice, or a dwarven psychic warrior/war mind who might teach a warrior or barbarian his ways, given sufficient wisdom. I do understand the risk of inflation of psionic characters, but the options are there to contain it. Number limits, having at least one high level character and consent of the DMs etc. etc. I just feel that outright banning psionics altogether is not a valid decision.

[Eldwen/DM Kallisti]

The staff talked with each other some time ago about the Psionic classes, and we have multiple reasons why we won't be allowing them.

1.) They require no Material, Somatic, or Verbal components. Although it might be technically possible to give them material components, that would take a lot of scripting. The material component system we currently have was created by the previous staff, and is supported by the PRC. To include psionics, and "Psi crystals" would be nearly impossible, as there is no basis to shoot off of: The material component system we have was created by the PRC, and they included the required material components for each and every spell, so we only needed to activate it. For the verbal and Somatic, this effectively gives the psionic classes "Automatic Still Spell" and "Automatic Silent Spell". Any Psionic class to wear heavy armor, have a towershield, and then buff themselves up. This also allows Psionic characters to "cast" without anyone knowing from an IC perspective it was them, or to even do so while tied up and gagged by a DM event, as an example.

2.) Psionics is a "mana pool" system, using powerpoints instead of the normal Vancian system in D&D. I won't argue over which one is superior to the other, but they do not mesh well in the same setting, or game.

3.) Psionic characters have the ability to Augment their powers starting at 1st level, this ability allows any of the Psionic powers to be used as if they were of the highest level the Psion could cast. No other spellcaster, including the sorcerer, has this level of flexibility. To emphasize, the best a Wizard will ever cast sillnoc's snowball" Is 5d6+5, at level 5. A level 5 Psion could cast a similar ability, Energy Ray, and also deal 5d6+5 points of cold damage, but also 5d6+5 points of fire damage, 5d6 points of Electricity damage with a +2 to overcome power(spell) resistance, OR 5d6-5 points of Sonic damage that ignores hardness (and most DR, as sonic is the least resisted element in the game.) Additionally, a level 20 wizard could still only cast Sillnoc's snowball as a 5d6+5, while the Psion could cast Energy Ray at 20d6+20. This would cost the Psion 20 power points, but by that point they would have 343 without Int bonuses, bonus feats, or other means of achieving higher levels. This example also didn't cover "overchannel" or other abilities to raise a Psionic Character's Manifester level past 20.

The psionic classes, save for the Soulknife, were banned in previous renditions of this server, we will be retaining that choice due to their imbalance on the server. We included the Soulknife to completely remove psionics from the setting, not due to it's imbalance.

In response to the Elan, we won't be allowing it due to being Psionic, being created by other Elan, and being an Aberration. An Elan would be killed on sight by pretty much every single other character, and Druids would be required to kill them on sight, just as they do undead.

Lastly, I'm heavily against restricting races/classes due to the server having to many of them, or having a player "earn" the right to apply for a class or race due to time playing. A player should always have the option to play something that is allowed no matter who came before them, or how long they have been here. Limiting a certain number of races and classes for people who come first is favoritism in my eye, which is one thing we've been adamant about removing entirely on the forums, server, and staff since we spun up again.

[shalvan]

community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/946751

This thread covers much of the "OPness" of psionics, and most of the problems don't even apply to NWN because these powers/feats are not present in NWN. Consider that during an average dungeon run a psionic character will run out of steam even faster than an arcane spellcaster - especially since arcane spellcasters have so immense power to buff themselves that they can function as formidable melee combatants (like Vaeran Taeval, my character on old Deepingdale, achieving very high AC as well as nice offense thanks to flaming weapon and ToB maneuvers), far tankier than fighters and other classes (starmantle, shadow shield, premonition, greater luminous armor).

As for Elans... They look just like humans, how would any character know that someone is an elan, if he keeps it secret?

Besides, the notion of Snilloc's Snowball (which I feel is a weak spell)... You skip the fact that for a psion to manifest 5d6 version of Energy Ray, psion has to spend 5 power points which is equivalent to casting a Fireball, while a wizard spends equivalent of 1 power point. For arcane spellcasters their spells scale for free with their caster level, for psions free scaling applies only to the duration (and often you need to augment anyway to increase it). Arcane spellcasters have far more spells than psions do, leading to greater flexibility. Yes, psions can change things on the fly, but wizards can just rest to prepare completely different set of spells. Psions are stuck with what they have. Psions are generally better at two things: blasting if kineticist and mind-affecting effects if telepaths. Arcane magic is stronger in all other respects, due to the sheer number of spells available.

To be clear - I see that the decision is set in stone and I understand your points (though I don't see why the two systems wouldn't mesh well together in one setting). The reason I can accept are material components as well as the fact that ICly they can manifest while bound, gagged etc., but I'd like to convince you on the other points. Psionic characters still provoke attacks of opportunity while manifesting. Heavy armor and towershield are IMHO moot as a psion would either have to burn precious feats or enter another class for four levels to be able to wear a heavy armor and psions normally don't invest in strength, so they'd be heavily encumbered.

If you are truly concerned by imbalance, then I'd ban Dragonfire Adept who can just snare enemies without save and slowly kill them. There are many things that are too strong, including arcane and divine magic. Of course, playing strong is fun. Not as fun for other players sadly... I am very tempted to play an Archivist/Runecaster, but I am a bit hesitant because of the insane potential power of this class combo, which could be further augmented by entering something like Hospitaler or Fist of Raziel for martial prowess.

[ToN]

That thread fails to confront the major reason psionics are considered OP - because they mix poorly with Vancian spellcasting classes. A lot of these discrepancies in damage output arise from the simple fact that the two systems are so vastly different that they function differently and that they can't mix in an appropriate and fair way. Point out, if you will, that a lot of the spells are exactly the same - but they aren't. All psion powers are fundamentally different from spells, even if they have the same effects and do the same damage. Psionicists even get a few powers here or there that are usually restricted to the realm of divine casting - rare, but there's a light dusting. Psionics, as a system, is a decent system - it just works better in isolation. The same applies to Vancian - great system, works better on its own. A mana-pool style of spellcasting that doesn't use spellslots, lacks somatic and verbal components, and applies metamagic on the fly like a sorcerer will, ultimately, always be more versatile than a wizard.

On the point of Elans, someone is eventually going to wonder why you aren't eating and drinking. In Mistriven Falls, that'd already be more than enough to get you lynched as it is - any excuse you would come with would involve magic.

Comparing power point expenditure to Vancian spell slots is moot - you can't adequately compare the costs of a spell to a power, because you also have to factor in that a wizard has to deal with somatic and verbal components, has to have a material component, and has to manipulate spell slots. The psion will always have the advantage of versatility. The psion is restricted in spell selection, but the wizard is restricted in actual usage, which makes all the difference in actual combat.

Psions are, rightly, considered a tier 2 class - they may lack the sheer variety of tricks (and the ability to ascend to godhood) that a wizard gains, but they have similar, or even greater, capacities for raw damage than a wizard when built correctly. Psions can switch damage types on the fly, can apply metamagic on the fly like sorcerers - if we want to continue making Vancian comparisons, they are what you get when you mix a wizard and a sorcerer together. They have the raw damage capacity of sorcerers, and comparable power selection to a wizard.

Lastly, I'd point out that psionics are an extremely rare ability in Forgotten Realms. It's been stated as canon that psionics are passed on through heredity (like sorcery), and that limits the possible origins for psionic characters to the Lake of Steam region if they're human, duegars, a few specific Drow houses in canon... It's never been as common as true magic, due to the fact that the key deity who oversees it, Aupenser, has been considered a dying power for at least three Editions of DnD. The only major group that worked to spread Psionics, the psiocracy of Jhaamdath, fell centuries before the starting timeline of our setting. Just from the lore perspective, the case against Psionics is pretty iron-clad.

Edit: This thread just reminds me that I need to make some cyberpunk setting that only uses psionics, to give them thee attention they deserve.

[shalvan]

Your arguments are more convincing. But take note that Elans have to spend power points to avoid eating and drinking. They certainly can eat and drink normally. They may seem a bit odd (charisma penalty), but if they won't do anything stupid, they won't be recognized.

Their power selection is still much smaller than wizards though.

[Corsair]

Psionics being rare on FR isn't terribly relevant - the Moonsea is now a domain of Ravenloft, and the Mists can pluck people from anywhere in the Planes - Greyhawk, Eberron, Athas...

I'm neutral on the subject of Psionics personally. If you ban them on the basis of their power, well, where does that stop? We aren't banning Clerics and Druids.